Parenthood really confirms that we are all just making it up as we go along. Even though you may not know what you are doing, it helps to know where you want to go. Use spiritual practices to help you figure out the 'how'.
Even if the people who raised you were the loveliest humans in the world, they made mistakes. And almost unfailingly, you will repeat them.
Enter, conscious parenting! Let's discuss the tools and techniques that parenting and relationship coach, Irene McKenna uses in her life, and teaches to her clients.
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USING SPIRITUAL PRACTICES TO BE A BETTER PARENT feat. Irene McKenna
Julia: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone. Welcome to Becoming Divine. My name is Julia Wesley. I am a professional, medium, and a channel for my guides. And today we have very special guest Irene McKenna with us. She is a conscious parenting and relationship coach. Thank you so much for being with us.
Irene: [00:00:32] Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
Julia: [00:00:34] I'm excited to talk to you because I know that you focus on motherhood and in terms of spirituality and using tools spirituality provides for us, I don't see anyone talking about that. So I would love to hear your perspective on how you use those tools and how you've grown in your spirituality to help you be a better mom and help other people.
Irene: [00:00:52] Yeah, absolutely. So truly I think in all parenting, if we change our focus from the child and what the child is doing and their behavior because we've so learned through our own childhoods that our validation comes from outside of ourselves. So like our child's behavior is our worth as a mom, or it's all that we're doing for everyone else.
We're keeping the peace. We've learned to quiet our voice and play small. So what I've really stepped into is experimenting with the parts of ourself that operate from this foundation of love source, God-- whatever the case may be for you, and tapping into that. Because if we can create that oneness, but separate ourselves from their choices, their behavior, then we become more of their guide and their teacher. But it has to begin with us and tapping into ourselves.
It could look very different for all of us. It could be meditation in different ways. It could be journaling, it could be learning to ground ourselves, but it's really about connecting to who we truly are, what we truly want to experience. Because so often we're saying my child never listens to me and it's what is it that you truly want?
Why I want to feel heard? Okay. How do we cultivate and support feeling heard? Or I want my husband to, help clean up around here. Okay. What I really want is to feel supported, how do we cultivate that feeling of support within us? And so all of these tools and answers are within us. And I think this is where we create this union between, mind, body, and spirit to tap into these resources in how we see life, interpret life, approach, life, and our relationship, and therefore experience it.
Julia: [00:02:35] That's great. The idea of being distinct, but yet still part of the all. It's the same principle being applied to the relationship that you have with your kids. And I think as a mother, that's probably particularly apt because this child was literally part of you.
And so it's that interesting way of, how do I disconnect enough to not place my projections onto this kid?
Irene: [00:03:01] And get so tied up in who I, quote, unquote, need them to be because that's, coming from our own stories.
And yes, it's so easy to project it, like you said, because they literally came from us. And so often that creates almost an onus of ownership over their experience over the path that we need them to take so that we get to feel a certain way.
Julia: [00:03:23] Yeah. So you mentioned using tools like meditation or anything else, but for that particular problem, how do you help people come to that realization that this is a distinct individual? They're allowed to have their own experiences.
Irene: [00:03:39] Yeah it's a combination of things, but one is starting to share the newest in brain science, like research and how the brain develops and how we shift from that traditional parenting model because that's what tells us that we need to have this control to fix their behavior, to focus on this is this traditional parenting model.
So it's part education and just relearning and questioning those beliefs and stories that we grew up with, and therefore it's how we see our child. And then it's connecting to ourselves because like you said, we're projecting so much onto them. It's seeing how our perceptions, our interpretations, our expectations play into our approach, which therefore becomes the result that we get.
Because I believe, on the energetic level, I love the quote, I think it's Sri Ravi Shankar, who says we communicate more with our presence than our words ever do. And I share this with moms all the time because when I'm disconnected from myself, my kids need me even more.
Because they're feeling that disconnection on an energetic level. So it's part education and relearning what we've believed to be true about the parent-child relationship. And then on the flip side of that, it's learning to love ourselves again, learning that we are worthy and we are enough not in what our child does or who they become, but that we are inherently enough.
So it's really about our relationship to ourself as a means of showing up differently in our relationships. Because this doesn't mean I don't hold boundaries with my child, that I'm either trying to teach them or I'm respecting my own needs. So I hold these boundaries, but I do it from a place of love and connection, not from resentment and punishment, and other means to, to fix and control.
Julia: [00:05:25] To go back to your psychology points. It's so true that in the old paradigm, where a punishment was seen as a means of affective behavioral modification and sure-- but also very traumatic. Yeah.
Irene: [00:05:42] In the moment it can be very quote-unquote effective, which is what leads us to continue this paradigm model over and over because in the moment I have stopped the behavior, but at what cost, right?
Behavior is the downstream communication of an upstream need or feeling. And if I'm only focusing on that behavior-- all humans act that way. If I'm reacting to my partner, I'm needing to feel supported or heard. But he's only focusing on the fact that I'm being snarky with him then we get in an argument, right?
It's the same with our kiddos. If we're only focused on that behavior in the traditional parenting, where it is again in the patriarchal, masculine energy. It's the what are they doing? I need them to stop doing that so I can have peace and calm and that kind of energy.
Versus shifting from that and relearning what we've been led to believe to be true from what was modeled to us.
Julia: [00:06:38] Yes. It's the modeling. That's so important, isn't it? Because that's the only thing that you've been exposed to. And so anything else seems ridiculous. "That's not what worked for me!"
Irene: [00:06:48] Yeah. We come into parenting with, on a subconscious level, an idea of how a child should be, how a parent should be. And this is why what has created this shift in how I see motherhood is because I have so many moms that come to me.
' I've read the books. I listened to the podcasts. I hear the tools. I know what to do. I can't freaking figure out how to do it and how to implement it! And I keep yelling at my kids. I keep being reactive to them. I keep wanting to use punishments, even though I know that I want to be different. How come I can't be different?' And this is why we need to recode on that subconscious level.
We need to learn to question those beliefs. This as like the reparenting work. That's a buzzword right now, but it's basically going back in because that child that didn't feel heard when you were five years old, who was punished for having feelings, who was told to suck it up, that child is still inside of you.
And it, and with the subconscious mind, it doesn't know time. So when I'm in the relationship with my child, I'm reliving that part of me, but now I'm reliving it as the giant, as the adult, as the person in power.
My husband has a saying that eventually came out cause we kept questioning it. When he was a child, there was so much out of his control that he used to say to himself over and over again, when I'm an adult, I get to do whatever I want. When I'm an adult, I can do what I want. I get to make these choices. So like when it comes to like budget, he'll we have this budget and then he goes to the store and comes home.
I'm like, what are we doing? Oh, you're an adult. You get to do what you want. And we keep replaying these scripts over and over again. And so we need to bring awareness to it, then recode it.
On a conscious level, I can read a book. Oh, this makes perfect sense. I understand the brain science around, like why I want to parent differently. And then in the moment I just can't do it. And then we go into the guilt and shame. There must be something wrong with me. Why can't I do this? And we keep swirling in that. And this is where creating that connection to our deepest self to relearn that we get to be loved unconditionally that we are unconditional love. But what we did learn was there's conditions placed on love, placed on attention, respect, affection. And so now we're still replaying these conditions in our life and our relationships over and over again.
Julia: [00:08:59] Yeah. You hit on a lot there.
So we're talking about timeline healing. We're talking about inner child work. So I think the first thing that I want to touch on is, you mentioned people being given all of the tools, like their lists, they're reading the books, they listen to the podcast-- but still coming at it from an old paradigms perspective.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is this idea of being the mom, but also taking on the persona of a masculine expression of it? Like you have to be both. From the old paradigm, the dad was just the provider and didn't necessarily take care of anything. They just arrived at home and everything was fine.
So when you are reliving the old paradigm and you're mom and you're kind of dad at the same time, and how do you interact with these tools in a way that allows you more flow?
Irene: [00:09:48] Yeah. So what I hear you asking is how do we shift that energy and being that more feminine energy? It begins again with awareness that there is two different ways of being. Because, not only did we witness this growing up, but we were in many cases, brought up to this. It was goals.
What can we achieve in school? How successful can we be? Which is always a very masculine energy. And what we don't realize is we're often seeing parenting from this masculine energy, what my child has to do, the goals we have to achieve, how we have to show up. So it begins with simply the awareness.
We get to shift to a different way of being. And part of that is learning that it exists. Learning that we can ask for what we want in a way that we're speaking to our desires without focusing on the doing.
So what do I mean by that? So there might be a night that I'm like, Oh, I'd love not to do the dishes tonight. I can speak that energy and I can be open to receive. I may do the dishes that night. I may not. And it's shifting from speaking to those desires and showing up in a way that we feel empowered in our relationships. So I talk about this unique self and when I talk about S.E.L.F., I love acronyms.
I'm all about acronyms. So I talk about our sovereign being like, what are the rules we want to have and operate from? Is it that the more I do. Others are taken care of? Or is it like the more I can be in an energy of being, the more fun we have? And like things still get done. And I find that when I shifted that energy, it's almost like I expand time.
So it's like, what are the rules I want to create and operate from? And that's where a lot of that masculine/feminine comes in. Because we've been leading with the masculine, but can I shift into seeing it differently? And then E is empowered. How am I showing up with competence in what I want and asking for what I desire in my own life?
And then L is love. Am I connected to that love within me, that inherent love and worthiness within me? And then F is focused within. Every time I feel triggered, what we've been led to believe again, that our circumstances happen outside of us. Therefore I need my child or my partner to do the act, say something so that I get to feel a certain way.
But in this paradigm, we shift to always looking inward. So that I know that the answers are within me. Just the other night my husband got irritated. He thought I had reprimanded him in front of the kids. So he was irritated at me. And so he comes with this energy and I'm immediately able to drop into, I was feeling unsupported in that moment.
I was feeling like I always have to be the bad guy-- so we can speak to what is actually happening within this versus you're being such a jerk. So of course I was a jerk back, right? Like we focus outward and we just create more disconnection.
But when we can own it and take radical responsibility for the feeling-- like in talking about I create my own experience, what I see it as I control how I interpret, perceive, and respond to my experiences. When we talk about controlling our experiences like I can't control my kid just drew on the wall. It happened. I can accept that it happened, but when I'm in a thing of, I need to control this, then I'm going to use punishments because it was wrong.
I'm past-focused. And instead, when I shift to looking within, I'm thinking, Oh, now I'm thinking of how hard it's going to be to clean that. And why don't I have control of my child? And I'm needing to feel like I'm being a good mom and now I feel like I'm failing so I can focus within. And now I'm like, okay. I can teach my child that there are a natural consequences to doing that, which is now we've got to clean the wall. Now I'm going to help my child paint this area of the wall. And I become a guide and a teacher, but that has to happen first from shifting that focus.
Julia: [00:13:36] Yeah. That would be, that sounds like a hard example.
Irene: [00:13:41] That could be a bit triggering. It could be, that was probably a big one. But it could be something as simple as, okay, I make dinner and my child doesn't like what I made. And by changing the focus, I've given up caring that they don't like what I make. I always make sure that there's one or two things on the table that they do. Or maybe there's yogurt in the fridge that they can grab.
But my creative outlet is creating in the kitchen. And I like to create things that my kids don't always like and I gave up feeling like that was a personal attack against me. Then I could just be like, this is what I'm making tonight. I know it's not something you usually love.
Is there something else we can put together for you quick? And some people are like I'm not going to be a short-order cook. And I was like, yes, I get that. And that's your choice. I want to cultivate the experience of mealtime as being relaxed and enjoyable.
And if that means I have a few quick things that I can give to the kids while I enjoy something else, that's good for me. This is again creating our unique rules, so to speak for our own queendom, if you will like our own version of motherhood and what that looks like, and it doesn't have to be all of these shoulds and rules that we may have been operating from.
Julia: [00:14:49] I like how you are placing a lot of emphasis on just my perspective of things.
Not anyone else's idea, not dad's idea, not the kid's idea. The idea of femininity and motherhood in general, traditionally that's a no-no. You're not supposed to do that.
Irene: [00:15:06] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We've been basically given the memo that motherhood is selflessness and to do anything different is selfishness.
However, I also know that the energy that flows through me is the energy that flows into my family. And when I am being selfless and giving from a place of being drained, being exhausted, eventually being resentful, I am not having the experience that I want to have. In parenting and motherhood, it's often like, I just need to have more patience.
No, patience is a limited commodity. Like you will never have enough patience. I like to talk about patience fatigue, like decision fatigue. We will always run out. If our method is putting this band-aid of patience on a depleted individual, you're never going to have enough.
And so when we take motherhood back and we say actually to be the mother, this is what I need to do. Or like to say we know you love your kids, but your capacity to show up in that loving, calm kind of flowing space comes from the things we do for us. It comes with this connection we have to our needs.
So I know for me that. Going to bed by 9:30 every night is what I need to do to show up the next day. Getting time outdoors every day is something I need to do. Even though it's zero degrees here in upstate New York, I'm still walking my dog outside because I know if I'm tumbling down that negative energetic space, I know it's up to me to reset that.
It's not that I need my kids to be quiet or behave better. Now that doesn't mean I get to not set boundaries on their behavior or the noise levels, but I do it from a place of love and connection by focusing inward first-- it's a completely different interaction. And the cooperation I get comes from the connection that I have with my kids.
I use the example on like connection and cooperation is like my husband likes things a little bit more picked up than I care about, and yet I value our connection. So I make the extra effort. To clean things up, be neater in certain areas. And so when we want our kids to quote-unquote cooperate, it comes from that place of connection.
Like they have to care what we want and to know that we care comes from knowing that we've got their back. Not that we're here to nag and punish and take things away from them when they don't do it. And the only way we get to that space where we can operate like that is by focusing inward.
Julia: [00:17:41] Yeah, you're hitting on something that is in a larger sense, not just in its application, towards parenting and relationships-- when you keep talking about the self in a, like a spiritual sense, there's this idea that in order to ascend you have to stop thinking about yourself as you. You're supposed to kill the ego. You're supposed to kill the self. And I'm like, man, that's unhealthy.
We really can't be doing that. You're you on purpose. What is it like to have the experience of being Irene or Julia or, whoever you are? And you're bringing up the point that the more that you focus on your particular individual needs, you're actually able to show up in a healthier, more loving, more connected, selfless way.
Irene: [00:18:26] Yes. If I'm focused in, and my capacity to show up in this way changes. And when that shifts, this is what ripples out and changes my family, changes generations to come after. This I believe is that spiritual connection. If I'm deeply connected to me and what I need as an individual, then we go up the levels of consciousness. So I'm showing up in courage, I'm showing up in love. I'm showing up in those higher states versus fear. Versus despair and hopelessness. Versus all of those lower energy vibes.
My ability to do that comes from connecting to me.
Julia: [00:19:03] Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's all coming from within you always all the time. And ascend is one of my trigger words. It drives me a little bit nuts. As if we're supposed to not be having this human experience-- I'm like, do you think you're here. . .? This was an oopsies? You're here on purpose.
And you mentioned how this sort of thing heals generations. And to get back to the idea of timeline healing work that you're talking about. It's so transformative and so healing that not only will it affect the timeline-- if we're going to think about it as linear-- into the future, you're going to be able to change the way that you've related to your past.
And you're going to be able to change the way that even perhaps your ancestors or even your living relatives changed the way that they relate to it. And it's not necessarily that you're changing the actions that have been taken, but you're changing the way that everyone relates to it. And everyone can see things a little bit softer and everyone can start healing from it instead of just recreating that trauma over and over again.
Irene: [00:20:03] Yeah, to me, I think motherhood is when we shift to seeing our children as our greatest teachers, right? They are calling on us to heal these parts of ourselves that have come from the pain of past generations. Like my parents doing the very best that they could showed up a certain way based on how they were parented.
And we go back. So here I am saying, okay, this pain stops with me. And that's how I'm in, like you said, that's how I'm shifting it. And yet the way we know where our pain points are, our children light them up really well. Like they're like shine a flashlight of, oh here, right here. This thing I do that irritates you every single time, some healing needs to happen here.
We need to look back at this. And so it's really an opportunity to step into this version of ourselves. As we were born into this physical body to be the state of love, the state of deep connection and the path to that-- if we choose to see it that way, it's not to fix our kids' behavior, but to see how our triggers come from our own story.
And when I shift those triggers, when I understand them, when I heal them, when I talk to that inner child part of me that is still in pain now I'm responding totally different to my child.
Julia: [00:21:22] Yeah. And it's seeing the triggers as opportunities for healing instead of someone that's just out to get you. Your triggers are your own problem.
Irene: [00:21:30] That's what I hear all the time. Like my child's pushing their buttons. I'm like, yes, but is that a bad thing? Could that be a good thing? Because they do know. They begin to quote-unquote trust in our reactions, right?
What we model, we model how they do that. And we have this inner and outer world and a child is always trying to create balance, as we all are as humans. And okay, I know if I do this, mom's pretty much going to do this.
Which is also one of the reasons why when you shift, how you parent it's likely going to get worse before it gets better. And you're going to be like, Oh my God, this is what's going on here? Because your child, you've just totally put a pin in the balloon of the balance between their inner and outer worlds.
And so now, Oh, mom's not yelling at me when I do this, so I need to ramp up my behavior so that I get that same thing. So I create balance. This is why it's a long-term game and parenting from a place of consciousness parenting, peaceful parenting-- I don't like the labels. But when we choose to parent this way, it is the long-term game.
It is, what am I modeling? What am I teaching? What am I guiding my child? Knowing that they are their own person. And they may not hold the same values as me when they're an adult, but what are the ones I hope to pass on? How can I relate to them from a place of connection versus trying to squash this behavior in this moment?
Julia: [00:22:45] Yeah, the fact that parenting is a long game because as you're talking, I was just thinking of kids that draw on walls, but you're right. You're stuck with them at least until they're 18. So how do you evolve this perspective or is it the same perspective as the kid, as your kid grows?
Irene: [00:23:01] Yeah. So you have the child drawing on the wall. Now, if all I do is smack them on the hand and send them up to their room, what they're doing is building resentment for me. So what they may be doing is now they're going to go break a toy, because I was on the phone and they needed attention and connection.
So they were using the best strategy they came up with because even negative attention is attention. So they were using the best strategy they came up with to get that. But if all I focus on is the behavior and I send them away and I didn't fill that need. They're going to ask for it in bigger ways.
So an example I like to share is, this was a couple of years ago. It was my younger son's birthday. I'm getting ready. We're just having family over when that was a thing. And I'm getting ready for it. I'm like trying to cook and clean and my son, so they're 15 months apart. My older son starts to like, make a mess and throw things and like just bug his brother and just quote-unquote act up.
And I wanted to just send them up to his room. Come on, I don't have time for this. Like what the freak are we doing here? But instead of okay, I don't know what it is yet, but there's something that he's needing. So I sent him out to play. I cleaned up. And then I went and put him in what I say are my hug handcuffs.
And he couldn't be free until I gave him like a hundred kisses and he laughed and we had a minute and we spent five minutes together. And the thing is after that all of the behaviors went away. So here was a child on a day that was all about his brother. He's six, right at the time. Here's the day all about his brother.
That he needed to feel valued. He needed to feel like he was still worthy of attention and affection. And by giving him that, I'm not rewarding him with attention, I'm filling that deeper need. So he didn't need to use the behaviors. So how does this evolve? So in that instance, my child draws on the wall.
So now I'm like, Oh my goodness, what have we done? Here are the papers for drawing. Now we're going to, we're going to clean this wall. And maybe if I have it, we're going to get some paint out or we're gonna paint it together. So I'm teaching them like, Oh, our choices have these natural consequences. But I'm handling it in a connected way. So then when they get older I don't have a teenager who's in, who is getting risky behavior sneaking around, because what does the goal become if I just punish them? Now I just need to get away with it. Yeah. I need to hide it. I need to get away with it.
And then I'm going to be looking for maybe attention or affection or respect outside of you. So I'm going to go to my peers and sometimes peers don't have the best interest at heart because they're writing their own story.
And so this is how, when we think of it as the long game, it's okay, they draw on the wall for a reason.
There's a quote shared with me recently. That was like, why would a great child choose this behavior? So that I've already starting with seeing them as this great, perfect being that made a choice in that moment. Why might they have made it? Oh, they might've made it because I told them to go play cause I was busy and they really needed some attention, or maybe I've never told them before that we draw on paper or maybe I don't have paper available and they wanted to be creative, so I can get curious about what's happening.
And as I do that over and over in these experiences, I'm creating natural opportunities for teaching. Oh, now we need to clean the wall. Maybe we need to paint over it. And as I do that, what they're creating is this internal motivation, this internal guiding light of quote-unquote, what is right or wrong.
But if all I'm doing is this authority figure-- where I'm telling you that's bad or that's good. Basically a child's Oh, I don't need to know what's better. Good. You're always going to tell me what I have to do. And then they're 18. And we see these kids floundering when they get to college, they don't know what to do or how to make choices on their own, or what decisions to make.
So they're looking for somebody to tell them what to do, and maybe that's when they go to that party. And they're like, Oh, here do this. And they're like, Oh, somebody telling me what to do. Okay. So this is why when we actually engage and connect. Yes, it is a much longer game. Yes. It takes more energy in the moment.
Yes. It takes more intention in the moment, but what am I creating in the long term?
Julia: [00:26:42] I like how you keep focusing on not just treating the symptom, but the cause of the problem. It seems as if there's a-- I'm not knocking on Western medicine, but there is a parallel between how we approach a quote-unquote problem, where we just deal with the surface issue that we don't want to be looking at, rather than what's happening in the first place.
And dealing with the why it's happening in the first place is a longer commitment than just sending a kid up to their room or something like that. But when you get down to the needs of it, I think not only because this is something that you can use for your kid as well as for yourself though.
Because that's part of it. That's what you were saying earlier on.
Irene: [00:27:24] I can't get to this place of calmly responding to my child who just wrote on the wall if I haven't taken care of me first. If I haven't questioned the beliefs and what I need, if I haven't given to me, if I'm running on empty and exhausted, my capacity to show up calm in that moment is non-existent.
Julia: [00:27:41] And so when we're coming from this place of showing up for the self first, taking care of your own needs, it's like a revolution in your mind where you're shifting everything to all of a sudden, you're the nexus point. Like you're the fulcrum, everything starts here.
And then that's where balance comes from.
Because I would assume that the way that we parent our children, or also the way that we have learned to parent ourselves, especially our inner child, how can you help them understand that inner child doesn't need its symptoms dealt with it needs it's the reasons behind why they're acting out.
And just to make this question even more complicated, how do you help them? How do you help them understand even what that deeper issue is?
Irene: [00:28:26] It's really through asking the right questions. Like when I work with clients, it's really reflecting back what they're saying and asking the next question that gets them to look deeper within and gets them to look deeper within.
What do you think, if you're reacting in this way, what is the likely result in that? And tying it back into, like into their body. So what were your thoughts in that moment when your child wrote on the wall? Yeah. Okay. And it usually comes back to some version of I'm failing.
I'm not doing enough. And so then it's okay, what is this costing you? And it's really just tying it back in. And then it's saying, okay, how would this have been handled in your childhood, or how did you feel supported in your childhood?
And so it's bringing them back to connecting the dots between them all because we often just see our current experience here and we're seeing it from our own lens, our own perception. And because we never learned to question our beliefs, we're just believing them. We're just believing our thoughts and thoughts are so fast that we don't even know the actual thoughts we're thinking.
So it really comes down to me asking the right questions and then teaching my clients how to ask themselves the right questions so they can create these shifts.
Julia: [00:29:29] Yeah, it sounds as if you're really talking about, don't do this alone. It's really helpful to have someone who can hold up a mirror.
Irene: [00:29:36] Yes, it absolutely is because we don't see our own stuff.
Even now, like if something's going on for me, I call a coach or a friend, I'll be like, okay, this is what I'm thinking. And they'll ask those right questions. I've also gotten really good at having done this work for so long. And asking myself those questions. So my goal is at some point like clients, for the most part, learn to ask themselves these questions. And there's going to be points in time where you're still not going to see the right question and you still need to dig deeper.
So yes, having that support, I think is vital. I don't think motherhood is something we were meant to do alone. I think the village, so to speak, has evolved to what that looks like. And I think it's vital to have that support and not just vent about our complaints and our issues, because all venting does is keep us right exactly where we are.
If we actually want to change, it comes to having those that hold space for us and call us to more. There's those that support us who are like, girl, I hear you let's go. Let's have a glass of wine together like that support's vital. But then there's also those friends that stretch us, right?
They are the friends that ask these questions and it might be friends. If you have them, it might be a coach. It might be being in a community that supports you. There are many ways, but it's holding you accountable to the vision that you hold for yourself. This is why we read that book and we have all these great ideas of what we're going to do but without that support and accountability and stretch?
It's like an old coat that we put on. That's just, it's full of holes. It's not keeping us warm, but man is it comfortable and familiar. Instead of that new coat you're asking me to put on that just feels scratchy and stiff and it doesn't feel good and it feels hard and it feels messy. And I don't want to do that.
We will always go back to what's comfortable. It's how the brain was made. We are made to survive and feel safe. And change, no matter how much we think we want it on a conscious level, doesn't come from that place. We have to understand what's happening deeper.
Julia: [00:31:31] Do you ever run into people who are like, I am so ready for the change.
But after a while, the subconscious comes into play and it starts like sabotaging. . . How do you help?
Irene: [00:31:42] Oh yeah. The containers I work with, like my one-on-one clients are six months long and they're that for a reason because a lot of this stuff comes up. I'm also available in between sessions.
So if you need to be talked off the cliff, like just send me a message. We'll talk through it. And that's where support is so vital, because like you said, that subconscious will come in. And it will quote-unquote sabotage us in ways that feel 1000% truthful. Oh, I had to say yes to volunteering with my child's Girl Scout troop.
Like I, I had to do that. So now I don't have time to do this work or, I had to host this big birthday party. So now I didn't have time to do my action steps for this week. And I'm not saying that those things aren't true. It's how we perceive and how we label them and how they are, underneath, taking the place of having time to do this.
So we don't see our sabotages as being sabotage.
Julia: [00:32:31] Is it, to use the example of the, I had to volunteer for my child's Girl Scout camp, is it framing the story as to that may be true-- but is that your belief or is that someone else's belief?
Irene: [00:32:45] Yeah. Where's that should? Why do you have to? Are you a yes for that in your body?
Are you a yes for that? Or are you a, I really don't want to do this, but I think people are going to be disappointed in me or people are gonna look at me like, who is she to say no to this, or right. Because this goes back to our place of being selfless, and not honoring. Because again, we learned that love attention, affection have conditions, right?
So I need to say yes to volunteering so that these other moms like me. I don't want to risk the quote-unquote conflict of saying no. And having to justify that because we do think then if we need to say no, there has to be a good enough reason for it. So yes, it's also questioning, what are you really a yes for? And what are you a no for? And starting to learn to listen to it. And if you say yes, and you realize, Oh my gosh, I am really a no for this. This has happened to me many times. How can you step out of it? How can you take ownership of that and take radical responsibility, so to speak for that, and make a different choice and honor your time or your space, or what will you do differently next time? This is building that awareness.
Julia: [00:33:50] Yeah. What will you do differently next time? That's the thing. And being aware enough to realize that, Oh, there's that trigger again?
Irene: [00:33:56] Like, you actually can say no. Like you actually can. And yes, they may be mad at you. Yes. They may be upset with you. And you can still say no.
Julia: [00:34:03] Yeah. And it brings up another good point when you are dealing with someone, who's realized that, oops, this is my pothole that I keep stepping into-- how deep within the work do you go? Do you say this is just what this is?
And so let's make different choices or do you find it useful to help people like really dig into it?
Irene: [00:34:22] It depends on the energy that they're operating from. There's value in understanding, and I'm also operating from the coaching realm.
So we're always focusing on our future actionable behaviors. If we come upon a trauma or a story that needs to be gone deeper into, I'm going to refer you to somebody to help you to uncover the story deep beneath.
I don't need to know those stories to help you make different choices in the future. However, if you keep getting stuck on the same one, where you're struggling to really show up in your life in this empowered way, then we may need some extra support in there in terms of, a therapist or somebody who can help you really uncover that deeper pain and understand it.
Julia: [00:35:04] That's a good point. In my work, sometimes it doesn't necessarily help at all to almost relive the trauma to get to the origination point, because what good is that? We're not even there anymore, so we don't need to keep recreating it.
Irene: [00:35:17] Yes. So helping my clients, same thing, I was just going to interrupt really quick.
It's like helping my clients see that like the past happened in the past. Yes. There is value to understanding it. However, understanding it doesn't necessarily mean a different future.
Julia: [00:35:31] Yeah. Exactly. And that is the next thing. Sometimes when you just deal with it on the surface, it sounds shallow, but sometimes you don't need to dig all that up again. And life will present you with opportunities to deal with a deeper issue-- if it's there. Sometimes when we go deeper into an issue, we end up creating an issue.
Irene: [00:35:54] Right? Sometimes it's just bringing awareness, coming back to that word of the patterns that you keep showing up in. Like every time your husband goes off and like starts working when you think he should be home connecting with you, this is the feeling that comes up.
So if this is the feeling, what's the thought behind it? We can shift that thought. We shift that feeling. Now we do also dive into some understanding of there was likely a time in childhood where again, you felt you had to earn attention or love or whatever the case may be. So that's why this is showing up, but we don't need to understand the depths of it. This is the old behavior. This is where you want to go. Let's not get stuck on the bridge getting there.
Julia: [00:36:33] I like that. Let's not get stuck on the bridge because so many people do that. You're trying to get from one place to the next. And I know I'm guilty of this. And instead of focusing on where I want to be, I get stuck on how am I going to get there? And then as I keep ruminating about how I'm going to get there, I create the problem itself instead of just trusting the process.
But that's, sometimes it's hard. The trust of the process is really difficult.
Irene: [00:36:58] It can be difficult. That's to me why having support, especially longer-term support is so vital because it feels so freaking messy in the interim, and it feels so hard. And there's going to be days where you're like, I don't want to grow.
I don't want to learn about me today. I just want to sit here and binge watch Netflix and eat peanut butter out of the jar and just sit. Like it's not this constant push. And your pattern may be that now I'm stuck in this for a month. Where with support, you're like maybe I stay there for a week or maybe I stayed there for a day or maybe I just need an hour to just let everything go.
And so this is where having that person, having a community that you show up in regularly, that calls you forward is so vital to staying in it. Because the patterns in our brain that are so active now? They've had a lot of years to lay down tracks.
Julia: [00:37:49] That's true.
Irene: [00:37:49] And when you are stressed, you're going to naturally go down what you already know. And so rewiring means I have to constantly commit to this new path. And that feels like a lot of work, especially in the beginning.
So there's these stages to change. As I see them we have the desire for change, right? And we can stay in desire our whole lives, but then we go to knowledge. And this is where I'm reading the books and I'm learning new stuff. And then we have implementation.
And implementation is this huge container. But what we often do is we like dip a toe in implementation. It feels like everything goes off wire. And so, I must need to know more. So I go back to knowledge. So I'm like dipping my toe in implementation. What I don't know is I need to jump into this pool of implementation and just start swimming.
And sometimes I'm swimming through clear water. Sometimes it's stormy, sometimes it's rocky. But I'm not going to get to trust and competence in embodiment of a new way of being until I'm in this container of implementation for what could be a long time. They say habits take what, like 66 to 365 days?
And we have emotional habits. We have thought habits and we don't change them. We can't set a boundary with somebody and it's set it and forget it. And now they're going to honor it every single time. But often we think that's what's supposed to happen.
And so now I must be doing something wrong or I don't get to have this. I'm not worthy of these boundaries. And we go into our own head in our own stories. To me, coaching is about this pool of implementation. And these are your long-term goals. This is the goal for this week and we just keep swimming forward.
And sometimes you're treading water. Sometimes the current is pushing you backwards, but having that support is about staying in the pool and not climbing out to the bank. You were already on to learn more about how to swim.
Julia: [00:39:39] Yeah, because that's the thing about embodiment, right? You actually have to do it.
You can't just learn about it. You have to give it a shot.
Irene: [00:39:46] Yeah. It has to be its practice. Yeah.
Julia: [00:39:48] And I'm wondering about your thoughts on, I may be making this term up, but almost like destination-ism. Where you're focused on some sort of destination that's out there. And we're always in this process of trying to get to it.
Irene: [00:40:02] Or we're focused on this certain outcome and we want to leapfrog everything and get to the outcome. And that's actually what creates overwhelm, where the brain has an outcome and doesn't know the steps to get there.
Because we're so focused on the steps down the road, we're not focused on the next step. Like we don't actually choose the actual outcome that happens. What we do is we choose the next little step that we take. And then the next little step and every step we take can be a step towards what we want.
Or further away from what we want, but we often don't see all those tiny steps as being choices to take us that way. We only see the big steps that we need to take to get there. And we don't know how to do those. So therefore we can't have the thing that we want or we can't get to the destination that we want because I'm so focused on these big, huge things.
My gut is a big thing that I'm in right now. And every time I choose to eat, I choose something with gluten. I choose something without gluten. And if I do that often enough and I keep choosing something without, I'm going to get to the outcome where I've healed my gut to the point that this is going to get better.
But if I don't see those little choices, I only focus on, Oh, I need to give up gluten so that I hopefully can have this. Then it feels big and it feels overwhelming. It feels like I'll never get there.
Julia: [00:41:13] And it takes you out of the feeling of embodiment as well.
Irene: [00:41:16] Or empowered or like sovereign, where I'm making my own rules.
It takes us out of all of those things that actually connect us to who we are within ourselves. And we're seeing life is happening outside of ourselves versus we actually have all of these little choices all day long.
Don't focus on too many things because there is decision fatigue. And if I'm like actively trying to change too many things, it's going to be overwhelming. But if you really pick one and you really focus on one and you just keep taking that step, knowing that there's going to be challenges, there's going to be obstacles, but keep that vision. And this is a lot of the work that I do is help people bring that vision into reality.
What I help clients do is we embody this version of you now. Who is the version of you that has a deeply connected relationship? How is she responding in these moments?
And we start cultivating that now. Then you get to have what you want, and the doing just happens naturally. But it comes from that place of implementation. I often say implementation works when you are okay with getting it wrong a heck of a lot more than you quote-unquote, get it right in the beginning.
You have to just be willing to get it wrong because in the beginning change happens from a place of reflection. Oh, I yelled at my kids five times a day. Okay. What happened each time? Instead of going into guilt and shame and feeling bad, it's okay, what happened each of those times helped me understand what were my thoughts that I was thinking?
What were the feelings that I was having that led to the action that I took? Then once I've reflected over and over again, now I catch myself in the moment. I have enough awareness to catch myself in the moment and stop that reaction and be like, okay, what am I thinking?
What am I feeling? And I can shift that in the moment before I ever get to that embodiment place. Before I ever get to where I'll just be calm about something that used to throw me off the rails. And I'm like, Oh, look at me. Yeah, it can be the best. And that's a lot of time and a lot of intention and a lot of nothing changing on the outside.
It's like here I am doing all this work on the inside and I'm not seeing any change on the outside. It took a long time for that cooperation with my kiddos to come full circle. And now I'll ask them to do something, is that every time? No, but I'll ask him to do something and he does it.
I'm like, huh? That, I guess we feel connected today, right? But there was a lot of time. There was a lot of the defiance, a lot of the talking back, a lot of the, not doing what I asked a lot of the time that I had to operate from this place of connection and focusing on what is this bringing up in me.
And why do I think I should react this way and showing up differently? And that's what actually shifted on the outside.
Julia: [00:43:58] Yeah, it sounds as if to be that embodiment of that person, that ideal that you're trying to achieve, you first have to be the person that is going to be able to make all those small little choices that will get you to your end goal. You have to embody that person first because if you're just going to be where you were before, you're not going to be able to be in the moment and make those little choices.
Irene: [00:44:19] Exactly. Exactly. And this is where having a container to remind you of those choices is what can be so vital to actually creating the ultimate experience that you want to have.
Julia: [00:44:31] Yeah. And I like how you keep placing an emphasis on the small choices rather than a big one, right?
Because the big one can seem more powerful than you are, but if you can take it into little chunks and say, I'm not climbing Mount Everest. I'm stepping over molehills all day.
Irene: [00:44:45] And if we go back to like my example with gluten it comes down to, okay, can I look up recipes that I might like, that don't have that ingredient in it.
I go to the grocery store and now I choose to buy those foods. So that's what I have in the house. So it's all of those little steps along the way, versus just this big, gigantic jumping into the pool, like a cannonball. And then. Oh my God, what have I done?
But it is these small steps. If all I do is wait for the fact that I've given up gluten for three months and celebrate that, then I'm missing the opportunity to celebrate every meal and every decision. Because what the brain does, if you celebrate something, the brain's Oh, we like that. We want more of that.
But if every meal I'm focused on, Oh, I don't get to eat that pizza today. I don't get to have that. The brain's we don't like this very much. Let's go have some of that. And this is where we veer off. But if I'm celebrating every decision that I make that takes me closer to my goal, I am laying this foundation for more of that.
Julia: [00:45:39] Yeah. I love that. I think you're absolutely right. And I feel you with the gluten thing. Gluten messes me up, man. And I've been, for almost a decade, I think at this point, I've had to cut out gluten. And you are very much, Oh, I can't have pizza. And also I went vegan almost on accident.
And when you're trying to explain to someone how to do it in, they're like, no. Cheese, no cheese? None?! And I'm like, yeah, but eventually, you do small little things that you don't even notice them. And one day you are like, Oh my God, I had cheese in my refrigerator and I forgot. And you have a slice of cheese.
And you're like, Oh, I just put garbage in my mouth. Like eventually you train yourself to--
Irene: [00:46:19] oh, how does my body feel now that I did that? And if I can tie into actually this doesn't feel good, then it's much easier to make those choices later on, instead of beating yourself up about having that cheese.
Because if all we do is spend our energy on beating ourselves up for having that bite of cheese, we're not finding the lesson in it. We're not saying, okay. I had the cheese because I went into the fridge blindly. I was not in a place of conscious decisions. Okay, great. Now how does my body feel?
You know what I feel bloated. I feel crappy. I feel sluggish. I'm going to pay more attention next time. I make a choice.
Julia: [00:46:53] Yeah, exactly. Irene, I've loved this conversation. Thank you so much for having it. Do you want to tell everyone where to find you?
Irene: [00:46:59] Yeah, so the best places are on my website.
irenemckennacoaching.com. I have a freebie on there you can grab. You can connect with me, learn about me, join my newsletter where I go out every week, and share behind the scenes of my life and how I operate from this perspective that we've talked about today. And then I have a podcast as well.
So Thrive In Motherhood is really a conversation around personal development in motherhood so that you get to thrive. And those are the two best places. I'm taking a little bit of a social media break right now. So focus on those two places that I would love to connect.
Julia: [00:47:31] All right. Thank you so much, Irene, and we'll see you next time, everyone.